Comp Growth?

maybe a land owner could "rent" some land to the club and in return we will have monthly or bi monthly clean ups

rocawl wrote:  If the club was a landowner, or on a legal contract lease, there's not much the "local landowners" can do to argue them being there.

 there, fixed it for ya,

Do no club members have anything to say about this?

 

rocawl wrote: I get blasted on here for having an opinion and then find this... .... Scott

Since I did part of the "blasting" I think I can speak with some credibility on this comment:

You didn't get "blasted" for posting an opinion, you got blasted for lack of good manners.  When are you going to learn the lesson?

As far as leasing or buying land, I think we all got the "buying land = access" point a long time ago; so there's no need to keep lecturing us on it.

The problem in buying or leasing land is twofold:  Money and Commitment.  Since most members are financially better off than you and are well, members, who show up for our monthly meetings (never mind own their property(s), hold steady jobs, have careers, etc.), it's pretty clear they have the Commitment part down also*.  Therefore, you may want to tone down your "holier than thou" attitude.  Even for the members who don't own their own homes, it's still a bit much because at least they come to the monthly meetings and paid their dues; you haven't and don't, given that you didn't show up last night either.

As far as the "Lottery" comment is concerned, have you ever won the Lottery?  I have.  While it wasn't the whole enchalada, it was enough to take care of some problems very nicely and did wonders for the asset part of my net worth statement.  If I won the same amount today, I'd would be very much considering buying land for the sake of club access.  So, in the future, if you want to throw rocks at the club or club members, it probably helps to know what you're talking about.

Buying land won't solve our total access problems, unless we were able to get reliable and legal access to 1000's of acres (see my lottery comments above): going to the same 40 acres on Coalmine month after month is gonna get old quick.  Hence, our initiatives over the last 2 years or so to be seen as responsible land caretakers, which, by the way, you seem to consider a major defect in the direction the club is heading.  We have been looking at other options besides leasing and buying, if you came to meetings, you'd already know this.

Bottom line:  You want to post your opinions and thoughts, have at it.  Leave the rocks at home.  This is our forum, not yours, we pay to keep it and maintain it (and if you came to the meeting last night, you'd know how much it cost).  You are a Guest, act accordingly.

Regards,

Al

* ETA: Do NOT interprete this comment to mean that I'm saying club members are better than you; it only means that I think most club members are better qualified to speak to the issue of buying land and don't need to be continually lectured about it.

Edited by Big Red

Edit:  Al, just read your ETA.  Sorry for the intursion on this subject.  I'll stop posting on the land issue.

rocawl wrote: Al, at what time have I attacked anyone personaly?  I have never once asked about anlyone's personal life.  Why are you attacking mind.

 

Your earlier comments about the club were pretty personal, IMO, plus the use of our forum to do it.  My comments about you were more about your qualifications in lecturing the club in how we run our business.

rocawl wrote: It's no one's business what I own or don't own.  It should be a issue of the "club's" finaces, not the club's members finaces.

You're right, and you're wrong: If we buy land, we will have to sign on the bottom line and it will be a personal financial responsibility for the members.  The background of the people signing, and their ability to deal with the liability, is an issue, as we discussed last night.

rocawl wrote: The idea, although not perfect, is just that, an Idea.  "If" the club owned a small piece of land, you have to be able to get to it.  I'm not talking about riding the same 10 acres every weekend.  ....

Pretty much agree, I don't expect perfection either, hence our investigation into other venues besides just buying land. 

rocawl wrote: This is a discussion fourm, I just thought I would throw out some thoughts.  Just trying to help your club out.

And my only objection is the other stuff.

Speaking of which, this issue should be in the member's only area, since I believe it deals with issues that only club members should see.  If you want to be a part of that area, please call me and we'll settle this once and for all.  Assuming that happens, I'll then endorse your access to the Member's Only area with Doc, Jeremy and Case (President, VP and Web Designer/Moderator, respectively).

Al

 

-DRM- wrote: You aren't kidding.  MTTR has been looking high and low and good land for a good price that is conveniently accessible to the interested parties is NOT easy to come by.

So let's join forces...

I missed this discussion because I wasnt looking at this public forum, I was focusing ont he private ones.....my bad.

Scott, like I told you, the club would like to have you as a part of it, but you have chosen otherwise.

We have looked at numerous pieces of land.  I have talked to several landowners in/around coalmine and discussed the possiblity of leasing - so far, none is interested.  Also, now is the WRONG time of year to be doing this since hunting season (depending on your weapon) has either already begun or will start in a few weeks.

EVERYONE, doggone it, this is a violent agreement.  I pose the following as FACTS:

• RCRC wants to find property to lease or buy for the purpose of extending the 4-wheeling hobby.
• RCRC has limited financial resources (which I am not going to disclose here)
• NO ONE in the club is willing to "sign on the dotted line" and take responsibility for a land purchase.  There is a history here which I wont go into, but it is widely known by the members how this was tried once and failed.
• The comp event which RCRC hosts was created to generate $$$ for the purpose of securing land.

I believe that the only way we could proceed with any land purchase or lease would be one of the following

• find a landowner who is willing to be a "benevolent sponsor"
• form some kind of a LLC or partnership and have all participants sign onto a contract
• have one member make a financial commitment to land purchase or lease, and work the club member arrangements directly with that individual.  This is a dangerous approach, but probably the easiest behind the "find a landowner".

So what do we do? 

• Land sells for somewhere around $1000 per acre. 
• Hunting leases are usually around $7-$8 per acre up to $15 per acre for highly desireable land. 
• Lease precludes the possibility of leveraging the timber value in a financial plan
• Gotta include taxes if purchased
• Gotta include insurance either way
• forming an LLC or partnership is about $1000
• I dont know what the IRS implications of all this are.  We need advice onthis issue.

I think we need to be looking elsewhere other than coalmine - the legal issues surrounding access up there are probably going to be tied up in court for a while.

most attorneys charge 800-1000 to do the paper work around here. You get a state and federal corporation account numbers and you have to file corp. papers to the IRS annually.

what's so scary about it?  As a club, you are already exposed to risk (hense the ins. policy), you already file state papers (I assume RCRC is incorporated like MTTR is?)  You already have rules you have to exist under, paperwork that must be kept...

IMHO it's just another business - nothing in there that scares me any more than anything else I do.

Yeah, I guess being behind the scenes on running 3 or 4 incorporated businesses kinda has me forgetting how intimidating it can be on the front end...

Like if you stuck me in a *nix server room and said "fix this" lol

Fact of the matter is, even when incorporated nobody is gonna handle financing with the club without some kind of personal guarantee from members, and that is where it gets sticky.

Then you have a group of individuals assuming risk for the benefit of the club, but if done through the club those individuals lack elevated weight on the decision making process about the land.

So I keep coming back to having something like this handled by a dedicated and involved group of individuals, who are ready to assume the risks BUT with that risk maintain a proportional say in the care and use of said property.

I don't like "group" financing, I would rather see "shareholders" secure their own financing (cash, loan, whatever) for their portion, bring that to the table with a set number of other interested potential shareholders and go from that angle.

Perhaps the club as an entity (just as any other individual) could consider being a shareholder as well, and that is how you work the club back into the mix.

The problems I have with a club owning/leasing land are just things that will eventually come up.

Who secure that agreement/financial responsibility if the club ceases to exist?
If talking about real property - do members own anything, or just the club?
How do you deal with the inequality of the club owning the property - when preceding club members did the work, and a new member joins and gets the same rights and privileges to the property?
If a club member leaves the club, can they sell their portion of the ownership of the property?
What if multiple clubs want to get in as well?  Or individuals outside the club?

Fact of the matter is - every time I start thinking about this my head starts to spin because there are SOOOOOOO many variables that come into play that MUST be at a minimum considered before property is secured.

So I guess it's not the concept of legal business that scares me, it's the logistics of organizing that business for a good fit with what the interested parties want, and protecting them from what they don't want.

Ok, enough rambling for now :p

I was talking to on of the landowners up on coalmine previously about access. He happens to like us because he knows we clean up and act responsibly. I've also personally helped him clean his land up several times from the locals that are trashing the place. He brought up the idea selling a small piece of land to me so I could have access. He was talking about a small strip 20'x100' for a couple of hundred dollars. I think this is a decent idea. This would allow me access for a small price. What the club might be able to do is everyone that wants access get together with a land owner that is willing to do this and buy a small strip each but right next to each other. Maybe put a little campground on it or something. This would allow the club to have access up there without having to get together to make a large land purchase. If I move back to huntsville, I'll probably do this. Just and idea I figured I'd share.

if i was you as a club, i would suggest lookin somwhere else besides just coalmine. there is green mt or drake mt. what about a place like the paint rock place. you as a club could go to the landowner and work somthn there. it isnt a well known spot yet. it isnt hard to find leases if you start changin your search areas. just my .02

Edited by jr hall

I just found this thread.  My father is a real estate developer and sometimes has huge chunks of land that won't be developed for years. 

What are the attributes that make a good riding location?  I may have one or two ideas that might work for the club.

Big Red wrote: rocawl wrote: I get blasted on here for having an opinion and then find this... [URL=http://www.uroceast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3286]....[/ URL] Scott   Since I did part of the "blasting" I think I can speak with some credibility on this comment: You didn't get "blasted" for posting an opinion, you got blasted for lack of good manners.  When are you going to learn the lesson? As far as leasing or buying land, I think we all got the "buying land = access" point a long time ago; so there's no need to keep lecturing us on it. The problem in buying or leasing land is twofold:  Money and Commitment.  Since most members are financially better off than you and are well, members, who show up for our monthly meetings (never mind own their property(s), hold steady jobs, have careers, etc.), it's pretty clear they have the Commitment part down also*.  Therefore, you may want to tone down your "holier than thou" attitude.  Even for the members who don't own their own homes, it's still a bit much because at least they come to the monthly meetings and paid their dues; you haven't and don't, given that you didn't show up last night either. As far as the "Lottery" comment is concerned, have you ever won the Lottery?  I have.  While it wasn't the whole enchalada, it was enough to take care of some problems very nicely and did wonders for the asset part of my net worth statement.  If I won the same amount today, I'd would be very much considering buying land for the sake of club access.  So, in the future, if you want to throw rocks at the club or club members, it probably helps to know what you're talking about. Buying land won't solve our total access problems, unless we were able to get reliable and legal access to 1000's of acres (see my lottery comments above): going to the same 40 acres on Coalmine month after month is gonna get old quick.  Hence, our initiatives over the last 2 years or so to be seen as responsible land caretakers, which, by the way, you seem to consider a major defect in the direction the club is heading.  We have been looking at other options besides leasing and buying, if you came to meetings, you'd already know this. Bottom line:  You want to post your opinions and thoughts, have at it.  Leave the rocks at home.  This is our forum, not yours, we pay to keep it and maintain it (and if you came to the meeting last night, you'd know how much it cost).  You are a Guest, act accordingly. Regards, Al * ETA: Do NOT interprete this comment to mean that I'm saying club members are better than you; it only means that I think most club members are better qualified to speak to the issue of buying land and don't need to be continually lectured about it.

Wow, you must be a really cool guy.

tjkrawler wrote: There you go again with the holier than thou attitude. As far as lying... I usually do go up to my dad's hunting land when I go on the trails out there, it just so happens that I have to go wheeling on some trails to get to it since it's at the top of the mountain. You come across as it being a bad thing that I go wheeling up at the stairsteps and sometimes go to my cabin and sometimes I don't. Do you even own land up there or have relatives that own/rent land there?

You (or more accurately your father) own land up there.  BFD.  I wish my Dad had hunting lands for me to go hunt and wheel on, but I dont - consider yourself very lucky.  What's your point?  Just felt like saying something derogatory about the club after we picked up lots of your trash up there?  Thanks.

Big Red wrote: tjkrawler wrote: .... Wow, you must be a really cool guy. And your solution is ..... what?  Please, try not to include Daddy's land in the discussion; let's hear what YOU can do to help the situation.Ok, have at it.

Nothing, I don't live in Huntsville anymore.

I hadn't been to the forum in a few months and this was still up on the
first page.

Sure... what's an SS?